Posts by Cold Steel

8

Early christians : Were they chosen ?, if so, what about those who were not?

by opusdei1972 in

it is a hard task to understand what christ and early christians had in mind.

but i noted that in the gospels appears the word "elect" (greek eklektos).

it seems that early christians thought that they were chosen by god.

Cold Steel

The Greeks, of whom Paul was very fond, knew quite well that the earth was not flat. Paul also was very educated and fierce in his condemnation of the Christians (at least he was before his vision). Christianity was never intended to replace the House of Israel, he maintained, for he knew that at the conclusion of the great battle of Armageddon, the Jews would be converted (see Zechariah 12-14) when Jesus/Yahweh returned and his feet would stand on the Mount of Olives. The Jews, seeing the wounds in his hands/feet, would instantly realize his identity and go into a national state of mourning.

The early Christian authorities also knew that this salvation would NOT come in the days of the Roman siege, but would occur after the destruction and dispersal of the Jews and after their return to the lands of their fathers in the future. This return is still in progress and the great battle of Armageddon (Gog and Magog) still in the future. There also are traditions recorded by Origen, who writes: "Clement, the disciple of the Apostles, recalls those whom the Greeks designate as antichthonians, (dwellers on the other side of the earth), and other parts of the earth's sphere (or circuit) which cannot be reached by anyone from our regions, and from which none of the inhabitants dwelling there is able to get to us."

This is often how we know, or surmise, what was known and taught by the early saints -- we find out by what is passed on. Clement was a good friend and disciple of Peter, the chief apostle. In trying to find out everything that was known to them, the early church fathers felt they could preserve the church in as pure a form as possible. Thus, there's a wealth of information that tells us that the apostles did not expect the imminent return of Jesus, and that they didn't believe the earth was flat. They knew about the apostasy, the destruction of the temple and they understood it was to be rebuilt in the last days and that the Jews would ultimately accept Jesus Christ.

17

If the Bible stated "God created man in heaven and placed him in the garden".

by jam in

what would think???

later he sent eve to earth....

Cold Steel

Ha, I knew someone would bring up the Mormons! But the only official teaching of the LDS faith is that man and all other forms of life were created spiritually before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. In other words, the idea that man is created in the womb or "sleeps" at death is rejected. Whether Adam was brought to the earth and not formed on it is speculation. But that Adam's spirit was placed within him is not.

24

Jesus 1000 years and Satan's 1000 years in the abyss

by berrygerry in

the thread about satan in the abyss for 1000 years prompts a question.. jesus will rule for 1000 years.. jesus began ruling in 1914, which means his 1000 year reign will end in 2914.. satan will be abyssed for 1000 years.. if the end comes in 2020, satan will be abyssed in 2020, and then released in 3020.. what happens between 2914 and 3020?.

honest question..

Cold Steel

I think the thousand-year reign begins after Armageddon and after Satan is locked up in the abyss. With no one to lead mankind astray, the people and animals will all live in peace and harmony. That means the Millennium. At the end thereof, Satan is released, he stirs up the wicked, there's a brief battle of Gog and Magog, then all of Jehovah's enemies and Satan, himself, will be destroyed. The other thread related to whether Satan was alive or dead (meaning existent or nonexistent) during the thousand years.

Conventional Christian exegesis is divided between, generally, those who believe in literal prophecy and those who believe in replacement theology. JWs tend to go for the latter. Funny, they believe in literal prophecy up to a point, then, suddenly, it's all spiritualized. Nothing means what it says. And the Governing Body gets to determine what the prophecy means.

8

Questions From Readers (w69, 2/15):Will Satan be dead in the Abyss ?

by raymond frantz in

another gem from the watchtower 1969 , back in those days the watchtower was engaged in the bible research to prove satan's actual condition in the abyss .

enjoy .... will satan be dead when he is in the abyss for one thousand years?.

Cold Steel

Jam: Why in the hell would anyone choose to follow Satan?

Hatred. Hatred even trumps the sense of self preservation.

During the battle of Armageddon, the prophets state that those nations surrounding Israel will be so enveloped in hate, that when Jesus returns, many of Israel's [Muslim] enemies will fight him. As we can see now, they have a seething, undying hatred of the Jews. Eventually, they will come down on Jerusalem to take the holy city (see Ezekiel 38-39), and the Lord actually speaks to Gog as though he were present. Zechariah even indicates that some of Judah's neighbors, after the return of the Messiah, will refuse to come to Jerusalem to partake in the feast of the tabernacles. He specifically mentions Egypt (see Zechariah 12-14). The Muslim mindset that the Quran is God's book and Muhammad his prophet is so strong that even when Jesus appears on the Mount of Olives and saves their enemies, the Jews, they are not going to be converted; rather, they're going to be filled with hatred. They won't take it kindly that the religion they believed in, fought and died for, and the god of their fathers -- all was a sham.

But this is exactly what the prophets said is going to happen. How did they know Judah was going to return to its ancestral homeland, and that its sworn enemies would be their neighbors? Why has Israel managed to miraculously survive two massive attacks where, logistically, it should have been destroyed? The Lord said he would, in our day, make Jerusalem a "burdensome stone" to all who set themselves against it. He said Judah would return and make the land a garden, which has happened. Anyway, Islam has not shown itself to be the religion of peace. And they have so come to hate Israel and the Jews that when the Lord returns, they will want no part of him.

18

Can you spot the circular reasoning here?

by DATA-DOG in

when i used to read the bible on a regular basis, i loved "paul's" writings.

anyway, can you see what is actually being said in the following passage?

" if anyone thinks he is a prophet or is gifted with the spirit, he must acknowledge that the things i am writing to you are the lord's commandment.

Cold Steel

There's no mystery to what Paul was saying.

Put more plainly:

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.

He's saying that if one is imbued with the Holy Spirit, one will know he is an apostle of God and one with authority. Along the same lines, we read:

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. John 7:16-18

There is no scandal in Paul's words. They are consistent with Christian dogma. It may help if you throw away your RNWT and get a reputable translation. The WTBTS couches everything the Bible says in its own stilted way of speaking and writing. That's the real scandal.

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13

Who Donates Blood For Jehovah's Witnesses That Accept Blood Fragments?

by SanLuisObispoTruthSeeker in

the elders say "its very wrong to donate blood because you never know what the medical community is going to do with that blood.

" i asked one of the brothers who is a consultant at one of the medical centers, "why are we allowed to take blood fragments if were not allowed to donate blood?

" he/she refused to answer, just shook their head and walked away all red faced!

Cold Steel

According to the blood people I used to work with, men can benefit greatly from donating blood. This is because many men carry an excess of iron in their systems. If excessive, they're treated with expensive procedures where the blood is taken, the iron removed and the blood is returned to the body. But if men give blood, they deplete their systems of this iron on a routine basis. And no one charges anyone a dime.

I can't see that the Governing Body would have any objections to having blood taken from the body, but with periodic giving of blood, both men and women can reduce the liklihood of having a heart attack. By going on an aspirin regimine and giving blood, it's less likely that it will be clogged in veins and arteries. So this was the reason that periodic "bleedings" for health reasons were done. It was supposed that the blood was bad in some way, and thus men particularly, benefitted from bleedings. In a way they were right. In earlier times, it was the men who hunted and warred; so they tended to produce more iron in their blood over time. Today, we don't really bleed much when we hunt and we send our kids to fight our battles. So the iron actually works against us.

Again, it's a healthy practice to give blood. The Watchtower and Awake! writers tend to cherry pick all the bad stories that result from receiving blood, but they never bother writing about the many more people who benefit from it.

101

org is dying

by lambsbottom in

i don't understand why so many ex jws and faders think that the jws will continue to grow and thrive as a religion.

i still attend a meeting once a week and you can smell the death of the religion creeping up when you hear the talks, read the study wts and hear the letters from the gb.

the way the organization has changed is a sign that it reached its peak (in "healthy" membership) long ago.

Cold Steel

The question I proffer is, what would be the effects of global catastrophes be on the sect, and religion in general. If we began to have increasingly devastating earthquakes, melting of the polar ice regions (which is caused by volcanic activity, not global warming), resulting in the destruction of coastal cities, and so forth, would this cause people who have left the faith to return to it?

By the way, in point of the Armageddon doctrine held by the WTBTS, as we see the recent military activity in Iraq, and the call by fanatical Muslims for a restored caliphate, the JWs had better rethink their position. The “beast” in the book of Revelation (also known in the Old Testament as Gog, the Assyrian, and fundamental Christianity as “the Antichrist”) rises up in the Middle East and ultimately brings its entire military power against Jerusalem. This is biblical eschatology. The JWs, however, have embraced the replacement theology by which they have replaced Jerusalem and Judah with themselves; yet how can they explain what’s taking place? Judah has returned, Israel has been reestablished, and now the Muslim powers are calling for a return of the caliphate, laying the ground for biblical Armageddon (not JW Armageddon, which is embarrassingly unbiblical).

Jesus returns when the “beast” attacks Jerusalem and is on the point of succeeding. With imminent destruction facing the Jews, the Messiah appears in Heaven and destroys the beast and all but a sixth of his military forces. The kingdom that “was, is not, and will be again” is, I think, the Muslim Caliphate. But prophecy also states that the world will experience many natural disasters and destruction, called by many the “Tribulation.” So when this happens, will people return to religion? The scriptures say no, but that men will “curse God and die,” but those who were once religious is another matter. I believe the Society also is suffering from a lack of faith in its legitimacy. After all, it has no claim to apostolic authority. Most people who leave the faith do not feel there is an alternative, and many end up rejecting all religion.

If these destructions happen, will the WTBTS see a revival? What effect would these devastations have on you? Would you see any religious significance or would you write it off as the earth going through natural changes?

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101

org is dying

by lambsbottom in

i don't understand why so many ex jws and faders think that the jws will continue to grow and thrive as a religion.

i still attend a meeting once a week and you can smell the death of the religion creeping up when you hear the talks, read the study wts and hear the letters from the gb.

the way the organization has changed is a sign that it reached its peak (in "healthy" membership) long ago.

Cold Steel

I still attend a meeting once a week and you can smell the death of the religion creeping up when you hear the talks, read the study WTs and hear the letters from the GB. The way the organization has changed is a sign that it reached its peak (in "healthy" membership) long ago.

But if you think it's sick unto death, and your wife is inactive, why do you still attend it? Do you still do pioneer work? And what do you think of them doctrinally? Also, what do you hear, if anything, about the Seventh Day Adventists? They used to be very into their religion and they did have similar Adventist doctrines. And though many here have sounded the death knell for Mormonism, we're still doing quite well, though the state religion for the United Kingdom seems to be, at the moment, atheism.

9

Can religion be banned?

by FL_Panthers in

is this a realistic thing?

can the governments or someone else ban religion?.

Cold Steel

Well, it's been tried. In a country where people have guns, it's not a good idea. That's why Hitler, Stalin, Mao and others made disarming the people their number one priority.

“The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let’s not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country.” --Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens. Introduced and with a new preface by H. R. Trevor-Roper. The original German papers were known as Bormann-Vermerke.

Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons

Jews (§5 of the First Regulations of the German Citizenship Law of 14 November 1935, Reichsgesetzblatt I, p. 1333) are prohibited from acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons. Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority. ... Firearms and ammunition found in a Jew's possession will be forfeited to the government without compensation.

Berlin, 11 November 1938
Minister of the Interior
Frick

As Nazi Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels insightfully put it: “The Fuhrer is deeply religous, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race... Both [Judaism and Christianity] have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end, they will be destroyed.”

It was clear that by the end of the war, Catholicism and anything else smacking of Christianity were next on the list. And though critics say that Germany before Nazism had tough gun laws, Hitler and his minions appeared in the streets with them on numerous occasions and, when captured, Hitler was only temporarily confined. You didn't see anyone except Nazis with guns after they came to power. But the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto managed to get their hands on a few handguns, and they terrorized the Germans with them, who they picked off in small numbers of one or two at a time.

Bottom line: If you're going to outlaw religion, you better get the guns, knives and other weapons out of the hands of those who might fight back.

56

A Mormon becomes a JW in the Feb 2013 Watchtower...

by cedars in

glancing through the feb 2013 "public" watchtower edition, an interesting article appears on page 8.. here is the pdf download link.... http://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat=pdf&issue=20130201&output=html&pub=wp&langwritten=e&option=trgchlzrqvnyvrxf&txtcmslang=e.

it's interesting how, in the story, the young man's jw aunt and uncle switch him from mormonism to the jw faith using third-party material (the nov 8, 1995 awake!

article), and he ends up becoming a jw after confirming on the official mormon website that the claims in the awake!

Cold Steel

Another depressingly moronic insight, Cofty. Sometimes I wish you would actually have something substanative to say rather than ejaculating whatever first enters your head. This all we ever get from you. At least QCMBR makes intelligent posts, though I don't agree with many of them. And BTW, we have plenty of British saints, as well as Spanish, German and even French saints. So please do so evermuch excuse me for not recognizing you as spokesman for the British people. Toodles.